Cremonese

保存如此之差,就算修好,也跟另做一把没什么区别了.  
价值无从谈起.   就让它散着吧.

liu01china

那把琴还在卖.
看来这位葡萄牙的老兄豁出老本了.只Ebay的老板们在偷着乐!
另一把琴两千两百英镑的琴看起来还不错.

Billchen

另一把琴两千两百英镑的琴看起来还不错.

能说说吗?

likerobin

原帖由 Billchen 于 2007-5-17 20:30 发表
另一把琴两千两百英镑的琴看起来还不错.

能说说吗?

Up for auction is this beautiful fine antique italian violin with two labels, reading "Joseph Rocca fecit  Premiato di Medaglie alle Esposizioni di Torino, Genova, Londre Parigi  Taurini anno Domini 1854 or 1858  IHS" - please check on the internet for this luthier´s price range! - and a second repair label reading " Stephan Riffel  Repariet: am 28.3.1942 Charlottenburg". The violin is well crafted, with accurately worked  inlay purfling and masterly carved scroll, which has been grafted. It shows some repaired and stable cracks on the front table, and only minor scratches in it´s beautiful very old dark amber varnish. The tone could be described as warm and mellow with good projection. It is mounted with gut strings except the E-string(steel). The front is very fine grained spruce and the one-pieceback, ribs and neck finely flamed maple. The ebony pegs are fitting well, the fingerboard is plain and the tailpiece is mounted with a finetuner/adjuster. We think, this is a violin of higher value and would be glad, if it goes to a good home! This violin came from a retired luthier´s estate together with a larger collection of fine old violins. Please see all detailed photos below.  Measures: total 60 cm / 23.62”, body 36 cm / 14.17”, vibrating chord length 33 cm / 12.99”.

likerobin

原帖由 张先生 于 2007-5-17 17:07 发表


GBGP 是指在帕尔马，而 GBGT 是指在都灵（Turin 或 Turino）。

还是张先生牛，我在网上找了很多label都是GBGT,没看到过GBGP。就以为都是GBGT呢。

stormlove

纠正一下张先生的logo的说法！这个应该叫火印，意大利这些制作师们每个人有自己的铁的印章，一般这个火印是这样盖上去的，在蜡烛上烧黑，打在标签纸上。然后上面刷一层稀的胶。至于logo 是现代产物，和电脑挂勾！哈哈！


关于标签的问题，这些大师们写的不是意大利文，是拉丁文，比如意大利文cremonese   拉丁文 cremonenfis 但基本的格式是 先自己的名字 如何制作在那，再写那年制作的！有时加上要感谢的人！

张先生贴的标签我翻译一下！
第1个：joannes baptista guadanini  皮尔京查的 placentinus （指他出生的地方） 制作于 fecit  米兰 mediolani  1703
第2个  同上  
第3个 后人写的 （我估计楼主贴的图片 人家就仿的这个）

第4个 j。b。guadanini  克莱蒙那的（指他学习的地方） cremonefis  制作于 fecit  都灵Taurini  师从于 alumus 安东尼。斯特纳迪瓦里 1777

第5个同上

第6个是关键  j。b。guadanini   克莱蒙那的（指他学习的地方） cremonefis  制作于 fecit  帕尔玛 parma  1765

最后说楼主的标签和 张先生贴的第3个标签 j。b。guadanini   制作与帕尔玛 c。s。r 是guadanini的工作室的缩写（真假听下面分析）

1：而在帕尔玛时期一般认为是guadanini 的黄金时期，我们看楼主贴的琴头，琴头喉咙部分， 简直快成直角型了。他黄金时期的那把琴师这个线条走向？ 如果说是磨损，那是不可能的。这个地方用不到。哈哈、

2：标签一般人名 +出生。学习地名+制作地+那年制作！ 楼主和张先生的第3张都少了，学习地名，制作地名！可以说是一个格式的错误！

likerobin

原帖由 liu01china 于 2007-5-17 19:46 发表
那把琴还在卖.
看来这位葡萄牙的老兄豁出老本了.只Ebay的老板们在偷着乐!
另一把琴两千两百英镑的琴看起来还不错.

Joseph Rocca的琴，这个成色的应该更贵。20万美金还差不多。不过他f孔形状还很像，就是地方好像不对。不过好的copy应该也值过2000磅。

JUST THE OTHER DAY, another Strings reader wrote inquiring about the value and authenticity of his violin. Like most readers who write to us trying to eek out information about a mystery fiddle, he carefully transcribed the faded, dusty label visible through the f-hole on the bass side: “Joseph Rocca fecit Premiato di Medaglie alle Esposizione di Torino, Genova, Londra Parigi Taurini anno Domini 1858 HIS.” Some of the words may be misspelled, he added, “as the label is kind of faded.”

It often comes as a surprise to learn how unreliable that paper label pasted inside your instrument can be in identifying an instrument’s maker, age, and place of origin. “Labels are as changeable as a pair of shoes,” quips Kerry Keane of Christie’s auction house. Even if the little tag inside your instrument is original, the information printed on it might be accurate but obscure, genuine but inaccurate, misleading, or downright false. A cursory investigation of the Rocca label provides an illustration.

Using a few key words as search parameters, the Internet turned up several instruments bearing the same label. Among them, a genuine Joseph Rocca, certified by a famous dealer and sold by a reputable auction house. The auction record for a violin by this maker is $207,757, set in 1999.

Clearly Rocca is a highly desirable maker.

A second violin bearing the same label was made by John Lott, perhaps the best of the English makers. Lott is famous for making copies so like a master makers’ work that they have passed the scrutiny of very well-regarded experts undetected. Whether to call them forgeries, rather than copies, is debatable, as forgery implies the intent to deceive. Lott being a fine maker in his own right, his violin sold at auction in 1994 for $26,450.

A third instrument with a Rocca label sold recently at Skinner’s, catalogued simply as modern, Genoa school. “I do remember that,” writes Skinner’s specialist, David Bonsey in an email. “It was a modern violin, looked a bit German. It had been everywhere, including a Christie’s sale, where it passed. It was all over New York and had several attributions to Enrico Rocca (Genoa) [Joseph's son], some from good people, to which I have no comment. In the end, it had just enough quality going for it that it sold to a dealer on spec that it was Enrico.”

The price at Skinner’s that day was $7,931—a good investment if it pans out, as Enrico Rocca instruments have sold as high as $79,000 at auction.

So, using the label alone to answer the reader’s question, could it really be a Rocca? Possible answers are “yes,” “no,” and “maybe, but not the same Rocca inferred by the label.”

As this one example illustrates, labels are hardly a reliable guide to identifying an instrument.

[ 本帖最后由 likerobin 于 2007-5-18 11:52 编辑 ]

likerobin

谁也不能保证琴头就是真的。赫赫。也可能弄错了把别的琴头弄来了
不过body的用料还是很好的说。

火车

请问各位老师，面板背后的小木片 是在 调试的时候 贴上其的？？还是在 制作琴的时候就需要贴上去呢？？它有什麽名称吗 ？？？

另外 文楼主一个比较八卦的 问题   要这把琴真的是 瓜达尼尼 你是会卖，还是收藏
若是收藏 你会每天都用他演奏吗？？？

田园小提琴

Billchen

stormlove

不同意张先生的看法，火印一说是 Scolari Giorgio告诉我的，我老师Voltini Alessandro也是这么说的，试问不能做出钢印， 他们大师做琴用的刀拿来的。做琴用什么？牙？

关于张先生的标签说法 楼主贴出来的那个标签，用这个样式的火焰只有一个人 joannes baptista guadanini
师从于 斯大爷 什么不说了，直接贴张图片，大家补补知识！

stormlove

上图，网络好屁阿，图还没搞上来！再来！

[ 本帖最后由 stormlove 于 2007-5-18 21:38 编辑 ]